Background reading:

• “Donald Trump’s ‘Moms Problem’ Could Cost Him the Election” — Skye Perryman and Mini Timmaraju
• “In the Shadow of Partisanship: The Supreme Court’s Recent Term” — Michele Goodwin

Transcript:

00:00:03 Michele Goodwin:

Welcome to Fifteen Minutes of Feminism, part of our On the Issues with Michele Goodwin at Ms. Magazine platform. As you know, we report, rebel and we tell it just like it is. And on Fifteen Minutes of Feminism, we count the minutes in our own feminist terms. And in this episode we are continuing our countdown to the election and this coverage is intense and hot. And joining me in this episode, as we unpack what the election means for our courts, for American law, at a time in which Roe v. Wade has been gutted, Planned Parenthood v. Casey is overturned, and we’ve seen women bleeding out in parking lots across the country. Women testifying before their local state houses and also in congress about having sepsis, about having miscarriages that were not being managed, about having to flee their state. 

We’ve heard the horror stories that have become so real and sadly normalized over the last couple of years. What does that mean in the context of the 2024 election? Helping me to unpack those questions and so much more is Skye Perryman who is the President and CEO of Democracy Forward, a nonpartisan national legal organization that promotes democracy and progress through litigation, regulatory engagement, policy education, and research. She previously served as Chief, Legal Officer and General Counsel of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Sit back and take a listen because there’s a whole lot of fire that Skye Perryman is bringing to this episode. 

It is such a pleasure to be with you. I’m always so happy to be in your company, Skye, because of the courageous and liberating work that you do and I don’t say that in a lofty way liberating. Democracy, you know, when we all can participate in a flourishing democracy that’s liberating, to just say the least, right? 

00:00:25 Skye Perryman:

Agreed.

00:00:26 Michele Goodwin:

So, I want to get started with a quick dive, and this is our 15 Minutes of Feminism platform, what are your hopes for 2024 in terms of the election that’s coming up? 

00:00:42 Skye Perryman:

My hope is that people see this for what it is, which is it’s not hyperbole. Our country is at an inflection point. We’ve seen our Supreme Court is not functioning in a way that’s protecting the rights of people. That is a democracy issue. There are extremist movements across the country. Project 2025 is not something that just appeared this year, it’s _____ (00:01:04) in the works for years and many of us, you and me and our organization and others, are on the frontlines of fighting that and have been for some time, but we are now, the American people are now seeing what is here. 

And so, my hope is that people can look this extremism in the face, that they will not blink, that they will do everything that they can do through their vote, but also through their voice, to chart a new path. And that people understand that while this election is incredibly significant the extremism is here and there is a lot of work to do under any scenario. The day after the election or the day after the election is called to continue to confront this extremism in the courts, in our communities across the country, and in the work that we do. So, that’s my hope.

00:01:53 Michele Goodwin:

I love how you turn that around and that was really quite purposeful because those can also be signs of fear. Exactly the things that you talked about are the things that people can be fearful about the Court as it is now, what we’ve seen in terms of January 6th, what potentially could happen, and this point about voting and using people’s constitutional right to be able to vote. I want to touch on something that you’ve been very concerned about and that is reproductive freedom, reproductive rights. 

And in much of the campaigning that’s taken place in this cycle, former President Donald Trump has maintained a particular focus on taking credit for the repeal of Roe v. Wade, of the overturning of it rather, and even congratulated the justices that he appointed for overturning Roe. And the Vice President is also, Vice President Harris, is attributing credit to Donald Trump for what was ultimately the Dobbs decision where the Supreme Court yanked away reproductive freedom. So, I’m wondering about how you view abortion right now, and reproductive freedom more broadly, and how that’s going to impact the election in 2024. 

00:03:09 Skye Perryman:

We know that the vast majority of people in this country believe that they should be able to control intimate decisions about their lives including their healthcare, including the decision on whether and when and how to have children, the decision to get an abortion, the decision also to be able to access other forms of reproductive healthcare. And we’ve seen on the ballot that when people actually vote for these things directly in geographically diverse regions that this issue wins. You know this, your work has shown this, but that’s, that’s actually information we’ve had for some time, now people are seeing it, but we’ve always known that. 

And so, I really do think that there is a lot of energy and mobilization that could end up in a good, really turning the tide here. Earlier this year, I was pleased to be able to launch a campaign with many other wonderful women advocates and moms called Moms for a Fair Court that is mobilizing women across the country to understand that it’s not just about Dobbs, but it’s about our reproductive freedom in our communities that’s at stake up in this election and we’re seeing a lot of energy around from all people, but also around, you know, moms that are looking at this. Looking and saying, you know, my kids have less rights than just a few years ago.

00:04:31 Michele Goodwin:

In fact let’s just pause on that. Because in the midterm elections of 2022 as people were really so concerned, and everybody should be concerned about our democracy, and I was telling folks in the wake of the pundits saying there was going to be a red tsunami, a big red wave. And I was stopping and I was saying that, look, mothers who are sitting across the table from their daughters, whether their daughters are 8 years old or 17 years old, and thinking about some lawmaker, if something happens to my child that a lawmaker gets to decide that my 8 year old becomes a 9 year old mother, or my 10 year old becomes an 11 year old mother. 

That those women, no matter what their political leanings have been, are going to vote towards preserving the health and safety of their daughters. Whether it’s their 10 year old that they’ve been taking to ballet lessons and soccer practice and chess club or it’s their daughter that’s just gotten into college and some horrific thing has taken place while she’s been at a party. Those moms are going to vote for their children, for their daughters, and I think that that’s part of what you’re saying in terms of what you’ve just collaborated on.

00:05:41 Skye Perryman:

Yes. And our campaign is also around making sure that people understand the power they have. Because one thing that is concerning in some of the early polling, and I think this is shifting because of the, because of the sort of good campaigning that’s been going on in a lot of good public education, is that sometimes there is a disconnect between people’s understanding of why Roe v. Wade was repealed, or was overturned, sorry, why Roe v. Wade was overturned, why our rights are going backwards at the hands of the Court, and what they can do. 

And the bottom line is our constitution provides the tools that we need. The American people can require that our elected representatives ensure that the courts work for all people, and Congress has a lot of work to do on that, and this is really something that we want to make sure that people understand across the country. And so, that is really what Moms for a Fair Court is seeking to educate people on across the country and I think that will be incredibly important in 2025 as well because we’ve got a lot of work to do to make sure that our court’s advance justice even after this election.

00:06:54 Michele Goodwin:

So, for my listeners who are tuning in, I’m with Skye Perryman and she is the President and CEO of Democracy Forward, a nonpartisan national legal organization that promotes democracy and progress through litigation, regulatory engagement, policy education, and research. And so, Skye, I want to take us to something that the former President has been talking about, so Donald Trump in various rallies has said the following things and I want to get your hot take on this. He said you will no longer be abandoned, lonely, or scared. And talking to women, you will no longer be in danger. You will no longer have anxiety from all the problems our country has today. You will be protected, and I will be your protector. What’s your sense of that?

00:07:47 Skye Perryman:

I think when an extremists shows you who they are you need to believe them. And we know what Donald Trump is, and he’s an extremist that is responsible for the reversals of our rights. But that language and that rhetoric is also very interesting and needs, we need to focus on. Because in this country women and people do not need a protector. President Obama said, I think in his 2016 convention speech, if I recall it correctly, we don’t seek to be ruled in this country. That is not what the American idea of democracy is and so this idea that a president is going to come in and try to “protect the women.” 

What we need is a country that enables people to be empowered and to have the rights that they enjoy and to live their lives and be able to thrive in the ways that make sense for them, and that is antithetical to what we have just heard him say. But that rhetoric, this is a feminist platform, that rhetoric is very concerning when we think about what we are saying to our daughters, what we are saying to the young people out today. You know, we don’t need a protector. What we need is a democracy that is as good as its promise and we need a President that is going to be committed to fulfilling that.

00:09:14 Michele Goodwin:

Skye that was just fire. That was pure fire right there. I think that we’ll want to just have that on repeat over and over again, truly. Because he added onto that women will be happy, healthy, confident, and free. You will no longer be thinking about abortion. And I think that you’ve just made hash of so much of that. So, prior to your work with Democracy Forward you were with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists where you worked on really crucial efforts including challenging the FDA’s pandemic era restrictions on mifepristone. If you could give us a sense of that and how that may be a battle that’s still in play in the United States despite this last term in the United States Supreme Court. 

00:10:03 Skye Perryman:

Well, we’re on the, we’re on the frontlines of that in so many ways still. The first abortion case that this 6-3 court heard was not Dobbs. It was ACOG v. FDA and it was a case where a district judge in Maryland had required that the FDA temporarily lift some of the restrictions, unscientific restrictions that had long been maintained on mifepristone during the pandemic. When the FDA had lifted restrictions on all types of medications including opioids, but the Trump FDA had not enabled mifepristone to be accessible in the pandemic. 

And so, throughout the pandemic as a result of a lawsuit that ACOG and SisterSong filed, and I was the general counsel of ACOG at the time, the ACLU litigated it alongside, alongside a law firm, we were able to obtain that nationwide injunction so that people were able to get mifepristone via telehealth, which is what doctors and scientists had long said, that this was safe and effective and that’s what the data beared out. 

So just before the 2020 election this matter went up to the Supreme Court, the Trump Administration was trying to, you know, get up to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court left the injunction in place. But right after the election, after Donald Trump had lost, after Amy Coney Barrett had been confirmed, and before President Biden was inaugurated the Supreme Court on its shadow docket took that case up in a very unusual procedural posture and essentially blocked people from being able to access mifepristone in the pandemic just right before President Biden took office. That was the first 6-3 case. It was on the shadow docket and it was about medication abortion. 

And then, of course, we’ve seen extremists continue to challenge the regulatory, you know, we’ve seen extremists continue to challenge access to mifepristone in both the AHM cases, which are still going on in Texas, and then in Project 2025 they just lay it right out that they have no desire to abide by any type of scientific or research integrity which has long shown that this medication is essential, that it’s effective. So, at Democracy Forward we are on the frontlines. We represent the nation’s only generic manufacturer of mifepristone in a range of these cases. 

It is important that we continue to make sure that medication is accessible, but I think it’s also important that people understand that these extremists are working through the Court to try to achieve what they’ve laid out in Project 2025 already and we’ve seen that, and of course we’ve seen that with this Court. 

00:12:59 Michele Goodwin:

So, Skye, I want to ask you about how you personally then see this. I mean, it’s personal and professional too because, you know, in the arch of your career it starts with an education, and it starts with an education where you’re in law school, and there is a certain reverence for the Court, a reverence for the Justices sort of being taught that these are arm’s-length kind of analyses that the Court is bringing. That the Court is relying on precedent, except for dangerous precedents that need to be overturned, but that there isn’t a partisanship on the Court. 

Justices and judges may have their ideological beliefs, we all know this, but it’s not another legislative branch of government. I’m wondering if you think that the public’s notion of that, or even lawyer’s notion of that, has soured in the wake of the Roberts Court. 

00:14:00 Skye Perryman:

We know it has. The polling shows that the, the polling shows that the public has historically low trust in the Court and approval of the Court and that’s concerning, but it’s deserved. Because in a democracy, and you know we learn this in law school too, in a democracy courts are a really funny thing because they do try to stand above this political process and the sort of people-driven process. And so, their legitimacy derives from protecting those democratic institutions and then protecting people in communities who may be left out of the political process either because of structural barriers or because of other systemic unfairness. 

And when they veer from that, when the courts stop protecting our democratic institutions and become an agent of, you know, voter suppression, become an agent of regression, right. When the courts stop protecting the individual rights of people or people in communities who are left out in some way, they do face a legitimacy crisis, and so we’ve seen that. We saw it, of course, in various earlier iterations of our history. We saw it in the early 1900s, of course, with the Lochner court for those that are legal eagles following this, but with a Court that really just struck down every attempt of the democratic process to solve for vast inequality, for unsafe conditions, and we’re now seeing it again. 

And so, I think that there is a reckoning that is coming and it’s a reckoning that our constitution actually provides for. The constitution does not set the Supreme Court, or any court, apart from our political process and apart from democratic accountability. These are coequal branches of government and there will need to be work to be done to reform the structures at the core in order to ensure that it is an institution that is working for democracy, and for the people and not for special and extreme interests. 

00:16:09 Michele Goodwin:

This time goes so quickly when we’re on our 15 Minutes of Feminism platform. You know, you and I just need more time together. We need to take this on the road, retreats. 

00:16:20 Skye Perryman:

Let’s do it.

00:16:21 Michele Goodwin:

Yeah, all sorts of things I’m envisioning right now. Before I end, and I’ll sweep back to where I began almost, we always end our podcast episodes with talking about a silver lining. And you really gave us one in the beginning, but I’m wondering if there is anything else in terms of a silver lining that you see coming forward, particularly given that in these times there is so much anxiety that people have associated with the election?

And in fact there are people who believe that perhaps their participation in democracy really doesn’t matter, that it’s all sewn up. And then there are those that have really strange extremist, you know, views and really are just so deeply, have become so deeply out of touch with reality, sadly, sadly, right? They want to be in touch, but the things that they believe like, you know, government causing rain in Florida, and North Carolina, and South Carolina, things like that. So, what’s a silver lining coming out of a time in which people are aggrieved and have anxiety? 

00:17:25 Skye Perryman:

I will say, I do think one silver lining is the mobilization and the collaborations that we’re seeing. I think Moms for a Fair Court is one of those silver linings, but I think there are a number of other ones as well. And I’ll tell you a story that just recently happened to me when I was, I was in a, I was in a cab and the cab driver started talking with me because there was an NPR story on the radio about the latest extreme proposal in Project 2025. And he was a civil servant. He was a retired civil servant and he now drives a cab, and so obviously, and we were, he was talking about how in his work in the Carter Administration, I mean, you know years ago, that they would do these typography tests and that they would have to type out, they were sort of improving their typing in this agency, and the thing that they were practicing was a line now is the time for all good people to come to the aid of their country. 

And he said he’s just continued to think about his life as a civil servant and then what the country is facing. He himself is someone whose family came to this country two generations ago and he considers himself still sort of a, you know, a product of immigrants and the product of the best of this country. And he said to me now is the time, isn’t it, that all good people should come to the aid of their country? And that really inspired me that everyone in all the different hats we’ve worn, all the different stations of life, can look at this moment. 

It inspires me to see someone that can sort of look at this moment and say this is a unique and special moment. This is an inflection point and the question is what we’re going to do? And I think we see people answering that call across the country. And we hope, we need more people to answer that call, but we see people answering that call, and that is a silver lining and it gives me confidence that there is nothing that we can’t figure out how to achieve. There’s no bolder barrier that we can’t figure out how to move. 

00:19:33 Michele Goodwin:

Skye Perryman, it is always a pleasure to be in your company. We’re so grateful at Ms. and Ms. Studios that you joined us in this podcast. Thank you so much. 

00:19:43 Skye Perryman:

Thank you.