Background reading:

• “Rolling Up Our Sleeves, Part 1: Fighting the New Trump Administration’s Wave of Extremist Actions” — Carrie Baker
• LISTEN: “Fifteen Minutes of Feminism: The Next President Will Shape the Supreme Court (with Skye Perryman)”

Transcript:

00:00

Dr. Michele Goodwin:

Welcome to Fifteen Minutes of Feminism, part of our On The Issues with Michele Goodwin at Ms. magazine Platform. As you know, we are a show that reports, rebels, and we tell it just like it is. And on Fifteen Minutes of Feminism, we count the minutes in our own feminist terms. And we dive right in. 

And in this episode, we are talking about 200 days of the Trump administration. We’ve seen more executive orders at this point than any other prior administration ever. We’ve seen dramatic crackdowns by ICE on people who are immigrants and people who are residents and people who are Americans. We’ve seen the significant rollbacks of initiatives that promote DEI, concerns related to women. We’ve seen the policing of speech. And we’ve also seen draconian cuts to health care, social services, and so much more. So let’s dive right in. 

In this episode, I’m joined by Skye Perryman, who is the president and CEO of Democracy Forward, a nonpartisan national legal organization that promotes democracy and progress through litigation, regulatory engagement, and policy education, and so much more. She previously served as the chief legal officer and general counsel of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. So listeners, sit back and take a close listen. 

00:00:03.270

Dr. Michele Goodwin: Skye, it’s such a pleasure to have you back on the show. We so admire the work that you do in your present position, and also the work that’s been along your career.

So in these times you’ve been on the front lines when it comes to fighting the Trump administration, many actions taking place in the courts over the last several months. For some, they say the last several months feel like several decades, but I’m wondering where are you now in terms of 200 days in and the Trump administration?

00:00:40.470

Skye Perryman: Well, we are. We’re 200 days in. It does feel like a lifetime. But there are some bright spots that I really want to highlight. In 200 days , we have seen almost 400 lawsuits filed. Democracy Forward, of course, has been part of so many of those, but amazing other organizations as well, bringing cases. The courts, judges that were appointed by Democratic presidents, judges that were appointed by Republican presidents, judges appointed by President Trump himself, are just consistently ruling against this administration because of how unlawful and how harmful what they’re doing is. And so we’re seeing again that very high win rate for people in communities that are bringing these cases. 

But we’re also reaching a point that I think is really important to emphasize which is the administration is starting to have to make some real choices about its agenda. They’re actually not able to defend the cases that they need to defend in court because they’ve chosen to govern in the way they’re governing, which is so unlawful and so harmful. And we’re starting to see in our cases at Democracy Forward. And this is a real testament to our brave clients. But we’ve started seeing the Administration actually walking away from some of the things that it is doing when faced with litigation pressure. So there’s a lesson in that. I know we’ll dive deeper into that. But that’s where we are at 200 days, and there is some good news. There’s also, of course, a lot of concerning elements that we’ll talk about the Supreme Court Shadow Docket that has really has prevented people from getting the the relief that the courts have granted them, and a range of other concerns, as well.

Dr. Michele Goodwin: Can you unpack a bit more the observation that the Trump Administration can’t keep up with what it has already started. What does that mean? Tell us a bit more.

00:02:35.800

Skye Perryman: Well, the first thing is that because the Administration has made it really almost impossible for so many lawyers to practice and represent the government because of what we’re understanding is happening in the Department of Justice, you have statistics like 2/3 of the division at the Federal Programs Branch at Department of Justice has quit or left the administration, and so they’re feeling that strain there. 

But the other pieces the administration has sought to really operate with quote shock and awe, but they’ve really had that returned back to them by people in communities that are going to court that refuse to be intimidated. And it’s almost as if the administration hadn’t planned for the courage that we’ve seen from communities, right? The courage that we’ve seen of people showing up into court. 

And so we see all the time we’ve had cases where we’ve won court orders and the administration backs away from the case and doesn’t appeal it up, and our clients get what they what they were suing for. You know, funds that they were intended to have, or other types of things. We’ve seen the administration walk into court, and not even want to defend what the policy that they came out with and switch their position in the middle of open court. Just recently, within the last two weeks the administration withheld billions of dollars of public education funding, and when met with litigation, immediately released those funds. 

So we’re starting to see that,  we saw that in Trump 1.0 too. This was a trend, but I think many of us had been wondering if that was going to happen here. And we are starting to see that. And so this, this people in communities using the power they have to get into court is really making a difference in that way.

00:04:21.470

Dr. Michele Goodwin: Tell our listeners a bit about the kind of pushback, the kind of fight that you’ve been doing at Democracy Forward. What have been some of the cases that you’ve brought since this administration has come into?

00:04:35.400

Skye Perryman: Well, you know, we’re bringing cases across the board, because that’s the way this administration is operating. But we’ve certainly been on the front lines with our friends at the ACLU in representing people that have been removed from the country without any process at all. You know the Alien Enemies Act case, that’s a Democracy Forward case alongside ACLU. We have won a court order on behalf of religious communities, a federal court order to ensure that ICE does not come into their houses of worship, and then we just filed a second case on behalf of more religious communities, trying to get them relief as well. We have had to challenge and successfully to date have challenged a policy that the Office of Refugee Resettlement instituted, that prolongs family separation. So that’s kind of in the immigration front and in the due process front. 

People in communities across this country rely on the federal government, on federal money. That is the people’s money, to fund programs like Meals on Wheels and Head Start. And we have brought a lot of litigation on behalf of communities, on behalf of small businesses, on behalf of the National Council of Nonprofits to stop the administration’s arbitrary funding freezes across the federal government in many different respects, and those have been quite successful. 

We are litigating on behalf of civil servants- the people who, for their careers, dedicated themselves and their talents to serving the American people, that this administration is decimating, trying to decimate the nonpartisan civil service. And so we secured some really important orders that were keeping the Department of Education from being decimated that was holding back those government-wide terminations. 

The Supreme Court on its shadow docket stayed those orders, although it did not importantly find that what the administration was doing was lawful. So we’re continuing to aggressively pursue those cases. We were out there on day one against DOGE and are working to protect people’s social security data and private data that they have at lots of federal agencies across the country as some examples, and then, of course, in the reproductive rights space, we represent GenBioPro which manufactures mifepristone, and it is defending its approval in what was the AHM case, of course, and is now a case by State AG. So those are just a flavor of some of our cases.

00:07:00.020

Dr. Michele Goodwin: Oh, my gosh! There’s so much!

00:07:01.550

Skye Perryman: It’s a big docket. It’s a big docket.

00:07:04.25

Dr. Michele Goodwin: That’s the flavor, that’s like going into the Gelato boutique- is that what we call them? Gelato boutiques? And just seeing the variety, you know. Full caseload, right, of the blueberry, the strawberry, the chocolate chip, the coconut. It’s all of that and more that you’ve been doing and really meeting the moment.

Were you surprised at all, Skye by the volume of executive orders that were signed within the first 2, 3 weeks of Donald Trump coming into office this time?

00:07:42.710

Skye Perryman: You know, I know that I know that we want to say that it’s surprising, because it was so shocking, and really shocks the conscience what they did. But this is something that the administration said that they were going to do. It was in Project 2025, of course they lied about their ties to that. But in the first Trump administration we saw at the time was a really unprecedented amount of executive orders. These have far exceeded that. So I think that we did know that we were going to face a high volume of them. We were prepared and ready. 

That doesn’t mean that you’re ready for the devastation that people in communities that our clients are facing with those. And I think that that’s what so many of us, even if you’re as prepared as you can be, you then have a reality that sets in about oh, my gosh! This is what is happening to our country, and so I think that has been quite an adjustment.

But we are lucky at Democracy Forward, because we have the privilege of representing people who have said even when elite institutions are turning their back, even when powerful interests are turning their back, the American people are saying, we’re not going to let this country go down on our watch, and we get to work with those people every day. And so I think that we’ve been able to really kind of find some solace in that as we’re making a difference every day. But it was, and continues to be, really something that is not normal, something that should shock all of our conscience. And the important thing is that there are tools that people have to fight back.

00:09:12.380 

Dr. Michele Goodwin: Well you mentioned when elite institutions turn their backs. It seems to me that this part of this onslaught has also been these incredibly unusual demands that have been placed on institutions. Whether we’re talking about elite law firms or we’re talking about academic institutions, it’s hard to measure or find a time in the very recent arc of American history let’s say the last, you know, half century, the last century, or ever, have we seen this kind of pressure on academic institutions, have we seen this kind of pressure on law firms. So while Project 2025 told us a whole lot, it didn’t really tell us that piece did it?

00:09:57.660

Skye Perryman: No, I think that that’s this part of the autocratic playbooks do. And we know that when we study history, but the President didn’t really level with people about that that was going to be the playbook. The closest thing, I think this comes, you know, comes to in history is something like the McCarthy era, or even, you know before that, if you look at what happened with universities in Europe prior to World War II as fascism was raging in Europe. 

But even then I don’t know that you saw the sort of complete, systemic and quick dismantling that you’re seeing. This administration really seeks to, you know, seek to accomplish. The good news about so much of this is, they are now hitting some major roadblocks. I mean, we were able to block last week we announced in a case a court has given us a court order that prevents them from enforcing these very problematic and unconstitutional certification requirements where they want institutions to have to certify that they’re not going to engage in diversity, equity or inclusion, and they won’t define what that is, and then they threaten you with criminal penalties if you falsely certify. So institutions are under a lot of pressure. But the courts are, I think, helping in some ways to alleviate a little bit of that. And this example that I’m giving is one where the government walked into court and wouldn’t even defend the initial policy that it had come up with.

And so that’s what our message is, is that we just need to keep going. And people in communities need to use all the tools we have. It involves the courts and the courts are not a perfect tool. We know that, but they are a really important one. And to put this administration through their paces when they try to prevent institutions, people, communities from doing what they’re meant to do.

00:11:50.690

Dr. Michele Goodwin: All right, and you mentioned then that the courts are not perfect. What’s been very interesting in this moment is that as there has been the litigation filed by Democracy Forward and other organizations and partner organizations with you, one has seen at the district court level federal judges, regardless of whether they were appointed by Bush, Reagan, Clinton, or Obama, consistently saying that many of these executive orders are simply unlawful, that they breach the constitution and constitutional norms, and that quite frankly some of them are just absolutely outrageous. 

But then you’ve also mentioned that this is a system that’s not necessarily perfect, and you flagged earlier the shadow docket. Tell our listeners very quickly. What is the shadow docket? And is this something that they ought to be worried about?

00:12:49.770

Skye Perryman: Well, yeah, I mean, look so when we say the shadow docket, we’re talking about the emergency, the ability of people to reach the Supreme Court in an emergency situation which I want to say is an important ability for people to have.

The problem is this administration, and it’s really the  administration, and then the court has also hastened it. But this administration is really abusing that power. In the years, if you look at the Obama administration and go back to the George W. Bush administration. You combine all those together, the shadow docket was used somewhere between like twelve and sixteen times. I don’t have my number. Somewhere there. 

In the first Trump Administration, the Trump Administration started trying to go up to the Supreme Court early without a full record on an emergency basis. Anytime a court came out with a decision that it didn’t like. And so we started seeing this proliferation in the use of the shadow docket. And of course, as the court has changed its composition, and you have the justices as they are now, we’re seeing this again, where the court is issuing a range of decisions that are affecting the lives of people, even if they’re not deciding what the law is yet, which is maybe a little bit of a silver lining in some of the shadow docket decisions we’ve seen. We haven’t seen them endorse what the Administration is doing, but they’re effectively taking away the benefit of the court orders that the lower courts have issued, and they’re doing it with in many cases without any explanation. 

And so this is really concerning and at Democracy Forward, because we have so many of these cases, we have had a number of cases that have been stayed by the Supreme Court on the shadow docket, the federal employee cases and the social security data case protecting our social security data from DOGE. And so I think it is something that everyone should be concerned about, and of course, our dissenting justices, particularly Justice Jackson, but also, in some instances, Justice Sotomayor, and then sometimes Justice Kagan have really been trying to explain to the American people the harms of the court, making these consequential decisions without really explaining what it’s doing. So this is a big setback in many instances, for the well-being of people.

The bright spot, or the kind of rest of the story, is that so many of the cases that we are bringing right now, they don’t end up on the shadow docket. We either don’t have to bring motions for emergency relief, so they don’t get appealed as quickly, or the administration backs away in the face of pressure. And so there is a lot of good work happening in the courts and by lawyers that are helping people that haven’t reached that shadow docket. 

I think the other piece of this is, and it’s very still very concerning when you look at how individuals are affected, our clients are affected. They’re harmed by the shadow docket. But we haven’t had the administration or we haven’t yet have the Supreme Court in a shadow docket decision so far in this administration make broad pronouncements of law, with the exception of a few cases. And so again, none of this is normal. It’s all very concerning. But we have a long way to go when we start looking at how this court is going to treat what the administration is doing, and I think that Supreme Court term that’ll start in October is the one we’ll all be looking at.

00:16:10.900

Dr. Michele Goodwin: So we don’t have tea leaves, and I know it can be dangerous to ask to predict. But I’m wondering what’s the next step? What are you anticipating? Because you know what Skye, you’re not playing checkers. You’re playing chess, right? And you’re playing to win. And you’re doing a great job of it. So what are you anticipating next? Because it seems to me that one of the ways in which you’ve really been so successful is that not only have you been brave and courageous, and so well prepared, but you have been so prepared. So what are you anticipating that comes next, that you and your colleagues at Democracy Forward are going to have to face?

00:16:49.460

Skye Perryman: Well, I think we need to keep our eye on the states. We’re already seeing a range of very far right and anti-democratic activity of course, continuing in some states that are under allied leadership. And of course, we’re dealing with the Texas situation as we’re recording this today. And so I think that, looking at what the sort of the extremism that has been embedded in some of these in some of the states, including my home state of Texas, the attacks on voting which can come in many different ways, and we’re looking towards a midterm election year. So those are things that are already bubbling up. But I think we’re going to see a lot more of them.

As the President continues to lose control over narratives, whether it’s, you know, his hypocrisy with respect to the Epstein Files, or whether it’s the fact that they make a lot of these brash threats, and they go into court and lose, and sometimes they don’t really want to stick to their guns in these cases, you know, whatever those things are, what we know about actors like this President, is that they will try to find ways to lash out in other ways. And so I do think that we believe that there will continue to be threats, and in some cases real instances where the administration will try to engage in unlawful retaliation and intimidation of people. And so we’re looking at that. 

We’re very concerned about what’s going to happen with the implementation of the Big Bill, and with the additional funding for ICE. And so we’re looking around corners. We believe there’s a lot of legal vulnerability with a lot of things that they’re planning, and so you’ll promise you’ll see us in court. But those are the kinds of things we’ve got to plan for, and then we have to keep going on these day to day cases that may not be the biggest headline of the moment. But taken together, they’re the kind of thing that people can do to make sure their rights are protected. So those are the kind of things we’re looking at, and then we’ve got the Supreme Court term, and we’ll have to see what the court takes.

00:18:46.360

Dr. Michele Goodwin: Before I let you go, and time goes by way too quickly. What’s the silver lining? And you’ve given some hints of it. I mean, I see the work that you do as being a crucial silver lining for folks, now, what do you see as a silver lining that gives hope for the people tuning in and listening to our show?

00:19:06.700

Skye Perryman: Well, I think this is a moment where we’re really being asked who we are, and we have to lean into who we are. And so there’s there are more costs right now for many communities. Of course, we know there have always been costs. For some communities there have been less costs. They’ve had a little bit more privilege or a little bit more you know favoritism in our system, but now there’s a cost for everybody, and we have to decide who we are, and if we are who we say we are, we’ve got to lean into it. And so I think that that there is a commonality and a coming together that we’re seeing in this time. That gives me a little bit of hope. 

The fact that this administration has chosen to not govern for people is very concerning, but also a real catalyst for a lot of change. This is not an administration that came in and said, we’re going to really take care of the rural communities and the communities that might have backed us and voted for us this community. The day one came in and said, we’re going to cut off all of your federal funding, and we don’t even know if you’re going to get, right. And so we’re seeing that commonality come out and people really having to rethink. And I think that gives a lot of hope.

And then the other thing, of course, that gives me hope is when we reflect on where we’ve been. This is a country that didn’t get to where we are without a lot of hard fought fights. The work of justice has always been urgent, it has always been costly. It’s never been safe, and I think we have an opportunity in this moment to join those that came before us, and answer the question that some of us might have wanted to know, what would we have done in that time? Guess what? We get to know.

And we get to know every day. And so those things, I think, keep us going. And the people and communities, of course, that we get to represent at Democracy Forward. We’re just so lucky. And and we and we get to do that every day.

00:21:00.930 

Dr. Michele Goodwin: Skye, it has been a pleasure to spend this time with you. It’s gone by way too quickly. I look forward to the next time, as I know you will be doing such incredible work in protecting, preserving, and shaping Democracy Forward. Thank you.

00:21:21.130

Skye Perryman: Thank you.

Michele Goodman:

And guests and listeners, that’s it for today’s episode of Fifteen Minutes of Feminism with Michele Goodwin and I want to thank my guest, Skye Perryman, for joining us and being part of this critical and insightful conversation. And for more information about what we discussed today, head to MsMagazine.com and be sure to subscribe. And if you believe, as we do, that women’s voices matter, that equality for all persons cannot be delayed, and that rebuilding America, being unbought and unbossed and reclaiming our time are important, then be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to Fifteen Minutes of Feminism. And you can do so on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever it is that you listen to your podcasts. And please support independent feminist media. And look for us at MsMagazine.com for new content and special episode updates. And if you want to reach us, to recommend guests for our show or topics that you want to hear about, then write to us at onthegissues@mismagazine.com. This has been your host, Michele Goodwin, reporting, rebelling, and telling it just like it is. Fifteen Minutes of Feminism is a Ms. Magazine and Ms. Studios joint production. Michele Goodwin is the executive producer of Ms. Studios and our producers for this episode, Roxy Szal, Oliver Haug, and Allison Whelan. The creative vision behind our work includes art and design by Brandi Phipps, editing by Natalie Hadland and Emersen Panagrahi, music by Chris J. Lee, and the fabulous work of Emersen Panagrahi, our intern.