Background reading:

• “For Women to Have Real Political Power, We Need Quotas” — Sandy Torrez Chavez

Transcript:

Michele Goodwin:

Welcome to 15 Minutes of Feminism, part of our On the Issues with Michele Goodwin at MS Magazine Platform. As you know, we’re a show that reports, rebels, and we tell it just like it is. It’s something you can count on with us, and on 15 Minutes of Feminism, we count the minutes, in our own feminist terms. 

Now today, you’re joining us as we continue to unpack this countdown to the 2024 election. And I couldn’t be more pleased than to be joined by Fatima Goss Graves. You know her. She’s been on our show before. She is the President and CEO of the National Women’s Law Center, the President of the National Women’s Law Center Action Fund, and co-founder of the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund, and in this episode, she’s joining us, wearing that hat, as the National Women’s Law Center Action Fund President. 

In the wake of Vice President Kamala Harris replacing President Joe Biden as the Democratic nominee, it’s been very clear, the role that women are playing in this election. 

And it’s very clear, the concerns that the people who love them and care about them, are playing as they are thinking about the lives of women, and the lives of girls in the United States, and just what’s at stake. 

And as we continue our coverage of the lead-up to the November elections, we’re delving into women and elections, girls and the elections, the role that gender is playing, what are we seeing in terms of the gender gap, how will abortion policies impact the presidential election contest, and how are media narratives addressing all of these issues, and influencing voters?

So, please sit back, take a listen, as I impact these issues Fatima Goss Graves.

00:00:06 Michele Goodwin:

It is always such a pleasure to be with you. I want to thank you for joining us and in your capacity as the National Women’s Law Center, President of its Action Fund. So, let’s dive in. We have an election that is coming up, and there are many people that are concerned about the role that women will play, the role that women’s reproductive health rights and justice will play. I wonder if you are able to predict, in any ways, just how powerful the concerns of women will be in the 2024 presidential election? 

00:00:53 Fatima Goss Graves:

Well, I’m so glad to be here. It’s completely clear that the policies that I like to think about as gender justice policies are front and center on voters’ minds in this election, and so, that’s why you’re seeing a robust back-and-forth around things like the care economy.

That’s why you are seeing the most significant presidential campaign to talk about reproductive freedom, that I have ever seen, and it’s why you’re seeing people talk about the costs that families are bearing. These are the things that women in this country have on their to-do lists, right? They’re thinking about their housing, they’re thinking about childcare, and they’re giantly worried about a suite of freedoms that have been under attack for them and for their children, right? This is sort of an intergenerational concern.

And when you square that with the fact that, in some states, voters are going to have the chance to vote for reproductive freedom directly on the ballot, not just in choosing the elected official that you think is going to best represent your values and concerns, but literally, they’re voting to change their constitutions and enshrine reproductive freedom, and in some cases, abortion access, in particular, into law, and so, women, in general, are a force in every election. There’s always a back-and-forth fight for the women’s vote, but in this election, concerns around gender justice are front and center.

00:02:46 Michele Goodwin:

What do you make of the polling that often…it seems to exclude women. You know, it’s sort of the kind of polling that men care about the economy, as if women don’t care about the economy and as if the economy isn’t also connected to their families and their reproductive capacities. At Ms., we’ve been doing some polling, and so, we know, for example, populations that typically are not counted in traditional polling, that women under 30 support Kamala Harris by a massive 3-to-1 margin.

That Harris has also gained support among young men and enjoys a 2-to-1 lead over the Republican nominee, the former President, Donald Trump, among likely voters under the age of 30, and a recent NBC poll shows her with a 21-point advantage among women, while Trump has only an 8-point lead among men. What do we make of that, considering that that, typically, isn’t front and center in terms of how polling captures an election?

00:03:56 Fatima Goss Graves:

You know, part of it is how…at least I’ve seen VP Harris and Governor Walz talk about their economic agenda. They haven’t said, okay, I have an economic agenda over here and then a plan to help families over there, or I have issues that women are concerned about in some place that’s separate from the economy. They have been clear that their economic plan, specifically, is going to address many of the issues that women are talking about and that are fundamental for families. You know, one of the things that has been a highlight of the economic agenda that they outlined was an expanded child tax credit, a tax credit that would be especially expanded for the first year of a child’s life, sort of naming that babies are expensive, all the things that are very, very true for families.

00:04:53 Michele Goodwin:

People forget that, that babies are expensive to raise.

00:04:56 Fatima Goss Graves:

They’re so expensive. They’re stressfully expensive. You love them, but they are expensive, right? So, they’re not saying, okay, so, we’re going to have a family plan or plan just for mamas. They’re saying, core to the economic agenda is making it possible for families to afford their lives. So, that’s what the child tax credit expansion is about. That’s what their plan on care investments in childcare and elder care is about. That’s what their plan on paid leave is about.

They’re saying family policy is economic policy, and when you contrast that ability to talk about that, from the little we know about the plans that Trump has put forward, it’s pretty distressing, right? He is prioritizing big tax cuts for billionaires and for big corporations that already have big tax cuts, and so, that…like, that contrast, if you’re someone who’s thinking about the economy that you are experiencing as an individual, your priority is not going to be more tax cuts for billionaires and mega corporations.

00:06:11 Michele Goodwin:

You know, when you were talking about how expensive babies are, I was thinking even dolls are expensive.

00:06:20 Fatima Goss Graves:

Every piece of it.

00:06:22 Michele Goodwin:

You know, like, doll clothes, the doll boots, the doll coats. Like, if it’s expensive for the Barbies and the various other dolls, like, and you’ve got real life kids…

00:06:35 Fatima Goss Graves:

Right. Justice for doll babies.

00:06:39 Michele Goodwin:

Justice for doll babies. I’m telling you, absolutely, but this has also been the very important work of the National Women’s Law Center in addressing these gaps, and I’ve always enjoyed the time that we’ve had together, whether on this podcast, at MSNBC, or elsewhere, as you…as your organization and the work that you do really shows that women still suffer under the economic divide, and I wonder if you could just help our listeners understand that just a little bit, for those who, you know, think that, well, you know, we’re coming around, and maybe we are, but there’s still some significant gender gaps?

00:07:20 Fatima Goss Graves:

You know, our sister organization, the National Women’s Law Center, did a deep analysis of the income and poverty data that just came out in September, so just this month, and what we found is that the wage gap increased for the first time in 20 years, when you…and that was more true for black women.

00:07:44 Michele Goodwin:

Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let’s go back to just understand that. What you’re talking about is that the gap that people perceived as closing, as shutting, has actually expanded?

00:07:58 Fatima Goss Graves:

It has expanded, and I…you know, it’s always those sorts of numbers that make you sort of take a breath, right, because you think that, really, your story is that you’re making progress that’s far too slow, too incremental, but when you find out, actually, that you have fallen back…and I’m going to tell you one more thing that that’s going to, I’m going to guess, make you mad, is the data that I’m talking about is the 2023 data.

So, it’s the first full year that abortion restrictions started really rapidly going into place. So, what we have, from that year, is an understanding that the wage gap increase, especially for black women, where it went to 66 cents on the dollar when their wages are compared to white men, when the states that race to pass abortion bans or let their zombie bans go into effect, were also the states in this country that were the most black.

And I have been sitting with that divide since I saw that startling result, because, with both of those problems, it’s not as if these problems rain from the sky. We know how to decrease the wage gap. The question is whether we’re going to do it. We actually know how to ensure people have reproductive freedom in this country. The question is whether we’re going to do it. These are absolutely 100% policy decisions.

00:09:39 Michele Goodwin:

You know, you mentioned that it would make me mad, and it does, and it makes me so incredibly sad, as well. It’s really sad to see that, in 2023, where that…the year of that data after the first complete year after Dobbs, and here we are in 2024 living with this, after understanding…and maybe we didn’t understand the real horrors of Jim Crow, and to see that backsliding, and that backsliding being connected to the states where reproductive freedom has been taken away, I mean, it is exactly, in many ways, what was predicted by Justice Blackmun in Roe, in saying that it was important that women have access to reproductive healthcare, to determine their own destinies, because it would affect their ability to be educated, and that it would affect their ability to be able to have meaningful careers, and it would have an effect, basically, on their citizenship and dignity into the future, and that’s, basically, what you’re saying that this data shows.

00:10:43 Fatima Goss Graves:

That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. So, you know, when I saw that, my reaction was, I hope it is a wake-up call, or the beginning of a wake-up call, for people in this country, that the…because when…the economic consequences for lower pay for women, it’s a giant concern for women as they live their lives, but it is also inextricably linked to their families and their communities. You cannot separate women’s financial security and success from the financial success of entire communities.

00:11:26 Michele Goodwin:

And that’s important, too, because these are not one-offs, essentially, what you’re saying. That one person’s inability to be able to determine her own reproductive pathway, yes, it affects her, but it seems that you’re also suggesting that it can affect an entire community, and if that’s the case, can you break that down a little bit more for our listeners?

00:11:49 Fatima Goss Graves:

Yeah, well, part of it is that women are more likely to not only be breadwinners for their families, but caregivers at the same time, and so, that has long been true, that they’re either sole or…the majority are sole or co-breadwinners, but more true, I’ll say, for women of color…are more likely to be the critical income for their families, and the thing that we learned…and I’m not sure why we have to keep relearning this lesson.

But I will never stop saying it, because, during the pandemic, when our care infrastructure really collapsed, what happened was that women were trying to both care for their kids at the same time where they were expected to work, many outside the home, right, and it just was impossible, and so, faced with that impossibility, many had to leave the workforce entirely and weren’t looking for new jobs in that period. Well, it wasn’t as if the economy kept humming along with no problem.

What it created was an acute and giant work shortage for companies, because they realized that they could not move without also considering the labor of women. So, women are foundational in their communities as caregivers and as community members, but they’re also foundational to the economy for their community as workers, and that’s a story we don’t often tell about women, because it goes against the trope, right? We have this old trope that we keep clinging to of men work, women care, and homes are built around that. Well, that has never been true for some groups of women, but it’s really not true for anyone now.

00:13:45 Michele Goodwin:

This is so right, because historically, intergenerationally, for centuries, for some women, that has not been true, and what you’re sharing is that, actually, there’s the historic story, but then there’s also this modern story where that doesn’t add up.

00:14:00 Fatima Goss Graves:

Right. It’s not true, but it’s the story we tell ourselves, and so, it allows us to underpay women to make us believe that, like, their labor is kind of pocket change labor, and it also allows us to not acknowledge the largely underpaid or invisible work of care they do, but what I am trying to say is a counter story that both…their wages are crucial for themselves and for their families, and the care they do is foundational for their families to run, but for full economies to run…and what has me excited is that I actually think, for the first time in a presidential campaign, you are seeing…in the economic agenda of Harris-Walz, you’re seeing that reality front and center.

00:14:56 Michele Goodwin:

So, listeners, joining me is Fatima Goss Graves, the President and the CEO of the National Women’s Law Center Action Fund and also co-founder of the TIME’S UP Legal Defense Fund, as well, and we’ve been talking about the election and about women and the gender pay gap and all that’s underneath that doesn’t actually get lifted up, and so, I wanted to do a little bit more lifting up while you’re with me and ask you, how do you think that Harris’ and Trump’s respective talking points about abortion will impact how they do in November, particularly amongst voters?

And my producers have given me a couple of Trump quotes, which I’m going to read out. So, Donald Trump has repeatedly cast himself as “the protector of women,” and he has said that if he is elected, that women will, quote, “no longer be abandoned, lonely, or scared,” and he has also said…these are quotes that come out of the Washington Post. To women, you will no longer be thinking about abortion if he happens to be elected. What do you make of that kind of commentary?

00:16:17 Fatima Goss Graves:

Well, you know some of his everything he will do on day one and what he will lead like is…it all shouts of authoritarian dictator. That, you know, Master Trump is going to determine my wellness, and so, one, it’s really scary, and I want to remind you, which I know you know deeply, of some of the policy ideas they have behind it. I mean, if you look at Project 2025, they are suggesting surveilling people who are pregnant.

And so, you know, I hope people are thinking about how far that protection will go. How far deep into our lives do you want Donald Trump and his band of folks, because they have deep plans to be very invested in our lives, but I feel like it is the most gaslighting campaign, because when I think about how outrageous the last two plus years have been, having to watch story after story of people who have been deeply harmed by the Trump abortion bans that have rolled out in communities.

And the stories are heartbreaking, again and again, of people who felt lonely and fearful, whose lives were put on risk. You know, the National Women’s Law Center has had a number of clients where, you know, people have had to go from state to state seeking care. They didn’t know where to go. The doctors didn’t know what to do and were fearful, and the patients were fearful. It’s terrible.

00:18:00 Michele Goodwin:

It’s stunning that, you know…very recently, I participated in a Senate before…in a hearing before the Senate Finance Committee, and there were senators that suggested, basically, that these kind of tragedies that you’re talking about have not occurred, or if they’ve occurred, the result has not been because of the bans on abortion, but have been because doctors are just simply not providing the care for their patients that they otherwise should, and that it has nothing to do with abortion bans whatsoever, but instead, it’s really about doctors not following their medical oaths and what is legally obligated of them to provide for their patients. Do you have a response to that?

00:18:46 Fatima Goss Graves:

Well, the doctors are, right now, choosing between what they know is right, and in some places, dozens to a hundred years in jail, right, to losing their medical license. So, you know, do I wish doctors would go to jail every single day in order to fight for their patients? Maybe that’s the reality that these senators are talking about, but who is truly responsible here are the people that put these conditions in the first place, and they can change them. Again, these abortion bans didn’t rain from the sky. We can fix them.

00:19:21 Michele Goodwin:

Well, in each of our episodes, we ask about a silver lining, and I’m almost there, as we wrap this up. Fifteen Minutes of Feminism counted in our own feminist terms. So, here’s something that’s very important, a very important question leading up to the election. We have never had a vice president before, in the United States’ history, that is a woman, and now there is a woman, Vice President Kamala Harris, who is leading the Democratic ticket.

And again, from one of my producers, is from an article published in the AP, which says that about 4 in 10 Americans think that Harris’ gender will hurt her chances of getting elected this fall, and during the 2016 campaign, about 3 in 10 said the same about Clinton’s gender. We’ve talked about before that you can’t trust these polls and who’s being asked these questions. So, we’ve got that, but how do we frame that conversation, then, about where our country is and how our country sees women in leadership?

00:20:37 Fatima Goss Graves:

You know, listen. I think many people still bear the scars of 2016 when we learned, some people for the first time, that sexism exists and that it was going to manifest in our election, and so, I think maybe some people in that poll are expressing their worries and their fears, and that they are not wrong to be worried, but one thing I will say that has kept me really hopeful and excited about where we are today is that Vice President Harris has actually shown us what it’s like to lead from that perch.

She’s negotiated around the world stage. She’s been the person to cast tie-breaking votes. She’s been the first again and again, and still, her campaign has been less about her and her story, and it is about all of us, and that, I think, is what is going to invite people in, is that she is with us. So, it is a she, yes, and she’s going to have to bust open glass ceilings and do all the things and run an impossible election in a hundred days, but she has kept people in this country front and center, and I think, in the end, that’s what will make the difference.

00:21:55 Michele Goodwin:

And to your point, a Harvard Youth Poll…so, our listeners are getting a lot of data today, but this poll found that 70% of young women, who are likely to vote, support Vice President Harris and claim that they will be making that vote, casting that vote in November, and asked which candidate, in another study, they trust more to deal with various issues in our country, many of which you’ve been talking about today, overwhelmingly, right, young women are supporting Vice President Harris, believing that she cares about the economy, cares about their health and wellbeing, cares about reproductive freedom, cares about the environment, and cares about the future that they believe that they deserve, and that, I think, we all believe that young people should deserve a vibrant and healthy future. So, with that, it brings us towards the end of the show, which comes way too quickly, because I could just spend a whole lot of time with you, and we always ask about a silver lining. What do you see as a silver lining in these times?

00:23:14 Fatima Goss Graves:

I think…listen. I’ve learned that women are a force to be reckoned with in general, but this is especially true come elections. In every state where reproductive freedom has been on the ballot, women have turned out in record numbers and beat all of the expectations in the polls. So, it is my silver lining that women keep beating expectations, and I think that will happen again, and you know, less than 40 days for that to work.

00:23:48 Michele Goodwin:

It has been a pleasure, a joy, an honor to just be able to spend these extended 15 minutes with you today as part of our gender and the election, the run-up to the election series that we’re doing at Ms. Magazine for On The Issues and Fifteen Minutes of Feminism platform. Thank you so very much. Fatima Goss Graves, President and CEO of the National Women’s Law Center and President of the National Women’s Law Center Action Fund, in which capacity she’s been with us today, and also co-founder of the TIME’S UP Legal Defense Fund. Thank you so very much.

00:24:27 Fatima Goss Graves:

Thanks for having me.