Background reading:

• LISTEN: “‘Not My Type’: How Two Women Took Down Trump on Sexual Assault (With E. Jean Carroll and Roberta Kaplan)”
• “The Part of the Epstein Story We Keep Ignoring? Survivors.” — Kelsey Morgan

Transcript:

00:00:00 Michele Goodwin:

Welcome to 15 Minutes of Feminism, part of our On the Issues with Michele Goodwin at Ms. Magazine platform. As you know, we report, rebel, and we tell it just like it is. And on 15 Minutes of Feminism, we count the minutes in our own feminist terms, and we dive right in. And in this episode, we’re continuing to unpack the Jeffrey Epstein files or at least as much that we know because there has seemingly been a gag order that’s been placed on this and there’s more to discover. There are women who’ve come forward who want justice, and they deserve justice. These are women who claim that they were harmed and victimized by Jeffrey Epstein who’s now deceased, but who’s left behind a legacy of trauma and harm. 

And the issue isn’t over, because the issue has also ensnared high level officials and it continues to. ABS News just this week, here’s a headline, Wall Street Journal moves to dismiss Trump’s 10-billion-dollar lawsuit over alleged letter in the Jeffrey Epstein birthday book, and I’m quoting from a headline there. And now, here’s a quote from ABC News, The Wall Street Journal and its parent company, Dow-Jones and News Corp, filed a motion in this week in September on Monday to dismiss President Donald Trump’s 10-billion-dollar defamation lawsuit over the paper’s July article reporting on an alleged letter from Trump that was included in a 50th birthday book for the late financier and convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein, in 2003. Washington Post headline from September 23, Statue of Trump and Epstein holding hands placed on the National Mall, the work is the latest installation in Washington by an anonymous group of artists critical of the President. 

And yet, there is more. From NBC a headline, Donald Trump calls the Epstein birthday letter a dead issue, The President has denied that he wrote the letter, which was part of a trove of documents the House Oversight Committee released recently. All of this and more has people shaking their heads as members of Congress saying that they want to know more. And it has, the people who have been victimized and harmed coming forward alleging that they will release names themselves of people that harmed them as they were adjacent to Jeffrey Epstein.

Joining me in this episode to unpack and continue a focus on these issues is George Conway. He is the President of The Society for the Rule of Law. An organization of conservative and libertarian lawyers devoted to the protection of constitutional government in the United States. He is also the co-host of The Bullworks popular podcast, George Conway Explain It All with Sarah Longwell. Sit back and take a listen. 

George, thank you, so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. 

00:03:46 George Conway:

Thanks for having me.

00:03:47 Michele Goodwin

Very recently I’ve had E. Jean Carroll on the podcast with Roberta Kaplan. So, tell us a little bit about this piece of information that E. Jean describes being at a party. 

00:04:00 George Conway:

Yup.

00:04:01 Michele Goodwin:

And you two being in a conversation, and that you emailed her the next day. This is after she had come forward and said that Donald Trump had sexually assaulted…had raped her at that time. That’s what she had said. And so, then you sent some information to her. What’d you send?

00:04:18 George Conway:

Yeah. I’ll even back up. I mean, that part of the story is like five minutes, but there’s a little context. The context is that when I first learned about the story, about her book. It came out one day like on a Thursday afternoon New York Magazine published an excerpt from Jean’s book and then the President denied ever having seen her, and I don’t know this woman, and so on and so forth. I was moved by that to the following extent. I felt like some dope that I had supported Donald Trump, and I had heard stories.

Like there was a paralegal at our law firm in 1988. I never really told this story, but in 1988 or so, 1989, ‘90, ‘91, there was this very attractive paralegal at Wachtell Lipton and during the negotiations for the refinancing of his debt. My firm represented the bank debt group. There were these extended meetings with the bankruptcy lawyers and Donald Trump was there. It was in our old offices at 299 Park Avenue. And when the story came out that there was this very attractive corporate paralegal who had been assigned, you know, the matter of what they do. They bring the documents out and they organize the documents for people to sign stuff, and they do all sorts of stuff. And apparently, they couldn’t get anything done because Donald Trump kept staring at this 20-something-year-old woman right out of college. 

And I remember I was thinking about that in 2017 and listening to all the allegations about him. And I kind of convinced myself, well, this is all old stuff. They had Bill Clinton, he’s way beyond this, I hope. The Democrats set it aside for Bill Clinton, which they did. I did brief in the Paula Jones case. And I just sort of let it pass, and I never felt right about that. And when E. Jean Carroll came out with her story, I was immediately moved to right an op-ed piece. 

I emailed the then head of the Editorial Board of the Washington Post and I said, hey listen. I want to write something basically saying that if Republicans believed Juanita Broaddrick who had accused Bill Clinton of sexually assaulting her, well then, they better believe E. Jean Carroll because certainly in some ways her story has more going for it. I’m not saying either…I’m just saying there’s more of the MeToo checks that you get there with people who are told about the incident at the time. And then of course, the pattern habits is just unbelievable. 

So, I wrote this op-ed, and it was basically brutal. It basically just said, you know, here’s Trump who called out Paula Jones or Juanita Broaddrick, not Paula Jones, but Juanita Broaddrick and had this press conference during the 2016 campaign and look at what’s going on now. I mean, if you believe Juanita Broaddrick, you got to believe this woman. It was a brutal attack on Republican hypocrisy. 

And what happened was, a couple weeks later, I’m at a party here on the East Side, you know, I’m in Manhattan, and I run into Jean Carroll. And she was very, very grateful to me for having written that piece. And by then, I had actually received contacts from other Trump victims, in particular, Natasha Stoynoff. I just chatted with her and one of the things she said in a couple, within the minute or two we talked, she said, some people say I should sue. And she was kind of asking me what I thought of that without really asking. And I said, well, you would have a claim. And I basically said to her, look, you don’t have a claim for the sexual assault because that’s statute of limitations would have, and would be civil, but he said that you were lying. He said that you were making that up. He said you were a nut job. And if this happened, that’s defamation. 

And I explained to her how that would work. She seemed interested and I said, you know, I know someone you should talk to. If you want to talk to a lawyer, I know the perfect person you should talk to. And I had become friendly with Robby Kaplan over the prior couple of years. So, the next day…yeah, this was like a very short conversation. The next day I either called, or texted, or emailed Robby, and told her I met E. Jean Carroll. Would you be interested in meeting her. And she said, yes, and then basically I put them both on an email, which now I want to get framed. I want it on my headstone.

00:09:52 Michele Goodwin:

Well, yeah. The rest with that is history and with just finding out that the…

00:10:00 George Conway:

But it was her courage. I didn’t give her any courage. I just told her like, okay, this is an avenue of relief…

00:10:04 Michele Goodwin:

And she is a very courageous person. You know, you’re right. She went through so much. It was such a…I think all three of us on that interview, it was moving. There was just a lot that was there that was unpacked in that interview about her experience at the time. She described explicitly what happened to her in the department store and in that clothing room. And then, the piece that you’ve talked about and how that affected her for so many years. The defamation. The sense that someone is out there saying that you’re lying when you have experienced such incredible trauma and what that means to experience that trauma and how it completely reorders the entirety of your life. 

00:10:49 George Conway:

Absolutely. 

00:10:50 Michele Goodwin:

She talked about not being able to have the romantic dinners that people have just because that really shut down a part of her life for decades. Decades of not being able to go home, and have the wine toast with someone, and whatnot because of that. 

00:11:04 George Conway:

It’s fear, yeah. 

00:11:05 Michele Goodwin:

So, it turns out that it doesn’t end there, George. And you’ve been making some statements recently. So, here’s a recent post on Blue Sky, and we’ll talk about Epstein, and we’ll talk about Trump.

00:11:21 George Conway:

I’m being cross examined on my prior…

00:11:23 Michele Goodwin:

No, I’m not cross…no cross examined at all…

00:11:27 George Conway:

I’m joking. I’m joking. I’m joking. I’m a lawyer. 

00:11:29 Michele Goodwin:

I’m interested in hearing…

00:11:30 George Conway:

I’m marking the exhibit, you know. 

00:11:32 Michele Goodwin:

There we go. Exhibit 1, Exhibit 2. I have too much fun with you. We’ve got to be on MSNBC again. 

00:11:38 George Conway:

I know. I know. I know.

00:11:38 Michele Goodwin:

I mean, it was a lot of fun. 

00:11:40 George Conway:

I’m ready to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. 

00:11:43 Michele Goodwin:

Exactly. That’s right. Straight from Blue Sky. So, you say it’s really quite stunning that we have a President of the United States who could sue anyone calling him a child molester for defamation and it would be virtually inconceivable that he could raise a triable issue of fact that the defendant acted with actual malice under the New York Times v. Sullivan standard. 

00:12:08 George Conway:

Yeah, interesting. 

00:12:09 Michele Goodwin:

It’s very interesting. So, tell us about that. It seems that there’s a lot that’s packed in there. It seems that law professors should be listening…

00:12:15 George Conway:

There’s a lot that’s packed in there. There’s a little defamation law, there’s a little current events. I mean…

00:12:20 Michele Goodwin:

Yeah. 

00:12:22 George Conway:

Here you have a guy who was civilly adjudicated to be a sexual abuser, as Judge Kaplan said in most states, by most people’s likes, what he did would be considered rape. It’s technically not rape under the New York penal law, but that’s just because New York has a particular definition of what separates digital versus penile rape. So, you’ve got that. You’ve got this long trail of people who have said that he has molested them, groped them, touched them, and in the case of…

00:13:03 Michele Goodwin:

Hasn’t he also said that this is something that he does and caught on a hot mike…

00:13:06 George Conway:

Yes. He said, he said, he said, you’re right. He said that…you know, on the Billy Bush tape he said that. And then, now we have him writing this bizarre birthday card, which he denies. You know, it’s his signature and it’s obvious that he wrote. There was nobody who could have planted this there. And it matches his signature on a letter he sent me, and a lot of letters he sent to other people, and Hillary Clinton. You know, he’s lying about that, and it’s written with this weird…they have this weird relationship, he and Epstein. And then there is this picture that came out yesterday of a check of Donald purchasing, or being a woman, or something. It’s just weird stuff.

00:13:54 Michele Goodwin:

Weird stuff. Really weird stuff. 

00:13:56 George Conway:

Really, really weird stuff. 

00:13:58 Michele Goodwin:

Weird. Weird. Weird. 

00:13:59 George Conway:

Weird, weird stuff. And if you came to the conclusion, based upon his behavior over the past few weeks that he was hiding something because he was that close to Epstein, that he must have something to hide. That he must have done something. I don’t think there’s a court in the country that could charge a jury, could allow a jury to decide the question of actual malice here. Where actual malice you have to show serious…that the defendant who allegedly defamed the plaintiff entertain serious doubts, actually entertain serious doubts about the truth of the matter being talked about. And I don’t know how you can prove that. I don’t know how anybody could have serious doubts that it’s true. 

You may say, I’m not sure whether it’s true. Maybe they were 21 years old, or maybe this, maybe that, but you can’t say that somebody, looking at this objectively, doesn’t have a basis to make the accusation. So, we have a President of the United States who you could not sue for being alleged to be a child molester. It is really just…think about that. It’s absolutely incredible. And those are the points I was making with that. 

00:15:24 Michele Goodwin:

So, tell us about for those that have been away from news, and podcasts, and TV news, what’s the thing about this birthday card that’s going on? What’s the birthday card say or imply?

00:15:39 George Conway:

Well, the birthday card. The text is so weird, but it basically says…it’s a conversation between…it’s a purported conversation…a mock conversation between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump saying, ooh, we like some of the same things, and we have secrets, and there’s an enigma. And on the background of it is drawn a naked female. And what’s even worse about the drawing…

00:16:11 Michele Goodwin:

What’s worse?

00:16:13 George Conway:
…than anyone excepted. Everybody expected it to be a curvaceous buxom female, a mature female. And then it turns out this female looks like a girl, okay. The drawing is not of a buxom, full-grown women.

00:16:31 Michele Goodwin:

This is not Marilyn Monroe. 

00:16:32 George Conway:

No, it’s not Marilyn Monroe. 

00:16:34 Michele Goodwin:

It’s not Marilyn Monroe and…

00:16:35 George Conway:

It’s a thin woman, almost prepubescent. I mean, just really…

00:16:42 Michele Goodwin:

Weird.

00:16:43 George Conway

…weird, and odd.

00:16:46 Michele Goodwin:

Odd, yeah. 

00:16:48 George Conway:

It is so bizarre. Beyond bizarre. 

00:16:51 Michele Goodwin:

Sketchy. 

00:16:52 George Conway:

Sketchy, and it really makes your skin crawl when you think too much about it. So, I don’t think this is going away for him. I think they’ve done everything here to make this worse for himself, he has in particular, and for some reason it’s funny. Because we had all these accusations that I ran against him that I think were fairly well substantiated. I ran a political action committee last year during the election that basically put three of four of the victims, as you know, videos, doing videos, telling their stories, including a woman who he groped at the US Open, which was just yesterday. He groped in 1997 or…actually he groped two women, one in ’97 at the US Open and one in ’98 at the US Open. One is named Amy Dorris and the other one’s name is Karena Virginia. So, he was like, you know, I mean, it’s just bizarre that he does this…there’s so many incidents that you have to not think that there are just hundreds of people who have stories that we haven’t even heard from yet. 

00:18:07 Michele Goodwin:

So, clearly there’s an effort it seems to suggest that there is no, there, there. There’s been the use of the language of, it’s a hoax. There was a conviction. Jeffrey Epstein, it is said committed suicide while being incarcerated. There are many women who have come forward. So, this idea that somehow, it’s a hoax when you’ve got convictions, including with Ghislaine Maxwell, as well, suggests right, that we don’t…

00:18:44 George Conway:

And you got Trump publicly saying nice things about Jeffrey Epstein over the years. You’ve got a handwritten note on a book that Trump gave to Epstein.

00:18:55 Michele Goodwin:

What’s the handwritten note piece. We’ve talked about the birthday card…

00:18:59 George Conway:

Oh, the handwritten note. The handwritten note says, you’re the greatest, Jeffrey. I mean these guys were…

00:19:02 Michele Goodwin:
No, it doesn’t say he’s the greatest. Does it say, he’s the greatest?

00:19:06 George Conway:

Well, it’s something like you’re the best or something, you’re the greatest.

00:19:11 Michele Goodwin:

Well, the best, greatest is kind of like the same. Right. 

00:19:13 George Conway:
Yeah. That was just it. They were buddies. 

00:19:16 Michele Goodwin:

Well, isn’t he trying to roll that back. Isn’t he trying to act like well they really weren’t buddies, but there are photos of them together. 

00:19:24 George Conway:

There are photos of them, you know, where they’re doing…

00:19:27 Michele Goodwin:

And they were dancing, right, looking like they’re at the party.

00:19:29 George Conway:

…the white man’s overbite as they used to say on Saturday Night Live, you know. 

00:19:31 Michele Goodwin:

Right. Yes. Right. And so, now why do you think that there is his attempt to pullback. Maybe that seemed quite obvious, right, his sense to distance himself from Epstein. What’s that all about?

00:19:48 George Conway:

Well, look, money. I mean, he’s trying to say that he had nothing to do with the guy. The evidence is to the contrary. And what’s really incredible about this is, they promised to release these files. They were talking, you know, the Trump Campaign was talking about releasing these files. The right wing has been obsessed with these files, and all of a sudden, and all of a sudden…

00:20:13 Michele Goodwin:

All of a sudden.

00:20:16 George Conway:

No. 

00:20:17 Michele Goodwin:

No.

00:20:18 George Conway:
Because they actually looked at the files. So, what does that tell you?

00:20:21 Michele Goodwin:

Because they looked at…okay. Because it turns out they read. They can read and so they finally read the file. 

00:20:25 George Conway:

Yes. They can read. They read enough. They had hundreds of FBI agents apparently, or dozens, I don’t know, looking at this stuff for weeks. And then they said, well, you’re in here, Mr. President. And then all of a sudden…

00:20:37 Michele Goodwin:

All of a sudden no. 

00:20:39 George Conway:

No. Can’t produce it. Because we’re all concerned about the victims, right. Because we know that that’s what they’re concerned with. They’re concerned about everybody but themselves. They are concerned about the public interest. They’re concerned about justice and due process of all the people who are named in the files. And the victims being rescarred, because we know that’s how they think because they’re so compassionate…

00:20:58 Michele Conway:

Meanwhile, you’ve got…

00:21:00 George Conway:

…because they’re so compassionate and moral and empathetic. 

00:21:05 Michele Goodwin:

Right. And we’ve got survivors who just recently had a press conference saying, release the files or that they will release what they have. 

00:21:13 George Conway:

Yeah.

00:21:14 Michele Goodwin:

So, have you seen these videos of the women who’ve come forward doing videos saying, I am not suicidal. Know that if I die…

00:21:24 George Conway:

I have not seen those yet. I need to go see those. I’ve heard about those.

00:21:28 Michele Goodwin:

Yeah. I need to see more of them. I saw one, you know, these days you have to wonder if, is this real…

00:21:34 George Conway:

It’s like a firehose of this stuff. You can’t keep up with it. I mean…

00:21:37 Michele Goodwin:
You can’t. There’s a whole lot. 

00:21:39 George Conway:

It’s crazy.

00:21:40 Michele Goodwin:

I mean, you’re sharing stuff, and I just see that there’s very recently that Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, who’s out of Texas, who sits on the House Oversight Committee, has suggested…

00:21:55 George Conway:
Love her.

00:21:56 Michele Goodwin:

…that there is a new photo that the Oversight Committee Democrats released very recently that she, and I quote here says, “is more incriminating than the birthday message.” This may be the photo that you were talking about. 

00:22:08 George Conway:

There was some drawing, additional drawing of…

00:22:13 Michele Goodwin:

Yes.

00:22:14 George Conway:

…and it was…

00:22:15 Michele Goodwin:

But the face redacted. 

00:22:17 George Conway:

Oh, I don’t know what that one…the one…

00:22:19 Michele Goodwin:

Well, so, here’s what she…here’s what she said, and I quote here, this is from when she was being interviewed on CNN by Kaitlan Collins…

00:22:27 George Conway:

Last night, yeah.

00:22:28 Michele Goodwin:

…on the show called, The Source, and she said and I quote, “the photo appears to show a young woman whose face is redacted standing next to a grinning Trump along with a Mara Lago club member, and Epstein, all holding an enlarged check made out for $22,500…”

00:22:47 George Conway:

Right. Right. Right. Right.

00:22:48 Michele Goodwin:

…with a D. J. Trump in the signature field. 

00:22:50 George Conway:

Yeah. And that’s the one I was referring to. I did see that. 

00:22:52 Michele Goodwin:

That’s the one. Right. 

00:22:53 George Conway:

I didn’t see the…I didn’t…and that was the one they said something like, basically a depreciated…they were referring to the girl as a depreciated asset. 

00:23:03 Michele Goodwin:

No. No. 

00:23:04 George Conway:

Yes. 

00:23:06 Michele Goodwin:

No.

00:23:08 George Conway:

Yes. That’s what they were, in the check or something. That was the whole thing. And then, there’s another one actually, which I thought maybe that was the one you were talking about. There’s another…

00:23:16 Michele Goodwin:
It just gets creepier. 

00:23:18 George Conway:

There’s another pair of drawings, which is very creepy where you got Epstein like 2000-something. It has a fake date on it, and he’s handing balloons out to little girls who are like prepubescent. 

00:23:31 Michele Goodwin:

Are these little girls, in real life little girls?

00:23:33 George Conway:

No, no, no. No. This is a drawing. 

00:23:36 Michele Goodwin:

They’re a drawing. Okay. 

00:23:37 George Conway:
A sketch. 

00:23:38 Michele Goodwin:

Okay. Okay.

00:23:38 George Conway:

Okay. And then, there’s a sketch of him sunbathing years later with young buxom women rubbing suntan oil on him, presumably saying, this is how he does this. I mean, it basically, to me, my first…it looks like it’s depicting grooming basically.

00:23:56 Michele Goodwin:

Yeah. Yeah. 

00:23:58 George Conway:

Okay. This is like, okay. This stuff was being passed around at a party, right. This is the birthday book. And so, they were all…

00:24:08 Michele Goodwin:

It’s creepy. It’s gross…

00:24:09 George Conway: 

…I mean, they were all joking about this, as a joke. 

00:24:11 Michele Goodwin:

It’s horrible. 

00:24:14 George Conway:

They viewed it as a joke, this grotesqueness. Okay. And the President of the United States, the current President of the United States was there. He knew what…

00:24:26 Michele Goodwin:

Well, you know, I could spend so much time with you. You know, we call this show 15 minutes of feminism. We also do say that we count the minutes in our feminist terms. But you know, we’ve heard, right…

00:24:41 George Conway:

New York minute. 

00:24:45 Michele Goodwin:

Oh, and I love that. Right. Exactly. We count the minutes how we want, right. 

00:24:47 George Conway:
Okay. Good for you. 

00:24:51 Michele Goodwin:

So, it has been said that of the girls, women that were harmed by Jeffrey Epstein, that there were some that had previously worked at Mara Lago. What do you know about that?

00:25:05 George Conway:

Well, I mean, what I recall from it is that the most famous victim, the late Virginia Guiffre, was working the spa desk at Mara Lago. 

00:25:20 Michele Goodwin:
There’s some people who even wonder whether she really is late…she really did die. 

00:25:24 George Conway:

I mean, you know, you heard she committed suicide, apparently. You know, like a few years ago, in her 40s. I have no doubt that the trauma of everything happened to her had a great deal to do with that, but apparently, she was underage at that time, she was 16 or 17, I forget which. And Ghislaine Maxwell walked up to her at the parking lot, or wherever the parking is for Mara Lago, and persuaded her to come and visit Epstein and see Epstein, and be part of the Epstein cabal, and they molested her. And that’s how she was roped into that. And then, of course, we had this incident a few weeks ago where Trump was asked about this, and Trump said, yeah, that’s why we banned Epstein from our club. He was recruiting our people or dealing our people. 

00:26:29 Michele Goodwin:

Right. He was in the White House wasn’t he when he said that. 

00:26:35 George Conway:
I think he was on Air Force One when he said that. 

00:26:38 Michele Goodwin:

Was he on Air Force One, okay.

00:26:39 George Conway:

It’s just so weird, like why. It is just so weird. Because they had put out a different story about why the two fell out, which was that Trump had heard something about Epstein being a creep, or something like that. It just doesn’t all…none of it really makes a lot of sense. 

00:27:02 Michele Goodwin:
So, George, as we wrap up, and we’re going to have to talk again about, this and many more, many other things, too, is, what’s motivated you to speak out about this? The Tweets, the interviews. I know that you said that years ago, working at the firm that there was a paralegal there, and now that kind of resonating back to something that you reported back in the 80s. 

00:27:28 George Conway:

I mean, I’m speaking more generally apart from the…

00:27:33 Michele Goodwin:

Right. 

00:27:36 George Conway:

…the sex assault issue. I mean, I just reached a stage in life where I can say whatever I want, okay. I don’t know how you can keep quiet. That’s the thing. And I saw…I began to see it happening in 2017, 2018. And in 2017, I turned down a job to be the head of a Civil Division in the Justice Department. I mean, I started seeing that with Trump there is no bottom. To the corruption, to the immorality, to the amorality, to the anti-legalism, the anti-constitutionalism. He was always going to get worse. And I came to fear that he might be reelected in 2020, and that’s what led me to speak out the first time, and then, lo and behold, I’m mean, everybody forgot how bad he was and here we are. 

00:28:36 Michele Goodwin:

And here we are. 

00:28:38 George Conway:

I mean, it’s a much longer story than that…

00:28:40 Michele Goodwin:

Well, we’re going to unpack that.

00:28:42 George Conway:

…you would require the longest feminist minute on the planet to tell my entire story.

00:28:46 Michele Goodwin:

We’re going to take the longest feminist minute. We’ll have you back over and over again, create a whole new podcast just on this, with the two of us talking about these issues.

00:28:51 George Conway:

Confessions of George Conway. 

00:28:56 Michele Goodwin:
We always ask our guests before we take off, what they see as a silver lining. And I don’t even know if that’s the right question to ask as we wrap this up. What happens next? Maybe I’ll ask that. 

00:29:10 George Conway:

Yeah. I don’t see any silver linings. I hate to say it. I do admire a lot of the work the people are doing. The people who are litigating these cases against the administration, are just doing absolutely God’s work, along with the United States District Judges who are handling these cases, and some of the Court of Appeals Judges. Not so much up at the Supreme Court. I’m getting really puzzled at them. And I don’t, other than that, I don’t see much that’s good. I mean, hopefully there’ll be some more protests. This No Kings event in October, hopefully, will be a big one. I know that it sort of, the protesting kind of went down during the summer, I guess. Maybe it was because of the heat, but I mean people got to get back out there, and people really got to realize what’s at stake here. I think too many people are just being spectators here, and that scares me. That’s the way things get worse. And things will get worse, because he’s getting worse. He’s getting more desperate. I mean, the Epstein file thing has him acting more defensively than ever, and so he’s going to do more and more to change the subject, to distract. And he’s also more resentful, and more vengeful than ever before. And I don’t think his mental state is going to get better. I think it’s only going to get worse.

00:30:38 Michele Goodwin:
Well, you and I will join together in conversation for another round, as we see how this all unfolds, and what kind of madness it all descends into. George, thank you, so much, for joining me for 15 Minutes of Feminism, as we count the minutes in our own feminist terms. 

00:30:59 George Conway:

Okay.

00:31:01 Guests and listeners, that’s it for today’s episode. I want to thank you for turning in, for joining me, and for being part of this critical and insightful conversation. To our listeners, I thank you for tuning in for the full story. We hope you will join us again for our next episode where we will be reporting, rebelling, and telling it just like it is, as usual. It will be an episode you will not want to miss. And for more information on what we discussed today head to Msmagazine.com and be sure to subscribe. 

And if you believe, as we do, that women’s voices matter, that equality for all persons cannot be delayed, and that rebuilding our nation, rebuilding America, and being unbought and unbossed, and reclaiming our time are important, then be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to On the Issues with Michele Goodwin, an Apple podcast, Spotify, IHeart radio, Google podcast, and Stitcher. Tune in for 15 Minutes of Feminism and all of our podcasts on Ms. Studios. We are ad-free, and reader supported. Help us reach new listeners and bring the hard-hitting content you’ve come to expect by rating, reviewing, and subscribing. Let us know what you think about our show. And please support independent feminist media. Look for us at MsMagazine.com for new content and special episode updates. And if you want to reach us to recommend guests for our show or topics that you want to hear about, then write to us at Ontheissues@msmagazine.com.

This has been your host, Michele Goodwin reporting, rebelling, and telling it just like it is. On the Issues with Michele Goodwin is a Ms. Magazine and Ms. Studio production. Michele Goodwin is the executive producer of Ms. Studios. Our producers for this episode are Roxy Szal, Oliver Haug, Mariah Lindsey, and Allison Whelan. The creative vision behind our work includes art and design by Brandi Phipps, editing by Natalie Hadland, and music by Chris J. Lee. Our intern is Emersen Panigrahi.