The Woman, Life, Freedom movement “has moved from the streets to inside the individual woman, every single one who continues with personal acts of civil disobedience,” Iranian human rights attorney Nasrin Sotoudeh told Ms.
Monday, Sept. 16, marks two years since the murder of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini made international headlines and sparked an uprising in Iran—the longest citizen-led rebellion in Iran since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.
Nasrin Sotoudeh and her husband Reza Khandan are no strangers to brutal and violent government suppression. The two Iranian activists and attorneys have faced harassment, violence and imprisonment from a government that will do virtually anything to crush women’s rights and freedom of expression.
My wife Marcia Ross and I became friends with Nasrin and Reza when we made the documentary Nasrin.
I recently spoke to Nasrin and Reza to reflect on Amini’s death and legacy; the Woman, Life, Freedom movement; and the future of women’s and human rights in Iran.
Thanks to Parisa Saranj—a Baltimore-based translator, writer and Ms. contributor—for her translation and support.
Jeff Kaufman: Mahsa (Jina) Amini died two years ago on Sept. 16, 2022. Before we discuss what happened, please tell us who Mahsa was and why she was in Tehran.
Nasrin Sotoudeh: Mahsa was a 22-year-old woman who, like other Iranian youth, wanted the freedom to choose how she’d live her life. But because the law said she had to wear the hijab, that was how she appeared in public.
On the day of her arrest, she was wearing a headscarf. However, that was not enough for the chauvinistic system or the chauvinistic people who put those laws into effect, because they wanted even more. They wanted her to cover herself, be invisible, and hide who she was in even more layers.
So basically, she died for her youth, for her individuality, for her beauty, and for being a woman.
Reza Khandan: Mahsa was visiting Tehran with her brother on holiday. They had just arrived. And technically, she was a guest. She was a visitor in the capital. This is very important, because in Iran hospitality is an important part of the culture. So the fact that a host would in this case harm and kill a guest was a major factor in shaping the events that followed.
Another important element that increased the visibility of this tragedy is that Mahsa was a Kurd. Her Kurdish name was Jina, which means “life.” Her hometown of Saqez is known for being a political city. Once this happened, the people of Saqez rose up in protest.
To be honest, sadly we know that many other women before and after Mahsa have experienced this same kind of thing because of the way they dress. For example, just last month Arezoo Badri was shot three times by the morality police while in her car for not wearing a hijab.
(Editor’s note: A 31-year-old mother of two, Arezoo Badri is in a hospital, paralyzed.)
After Mahsa’s death, we saw many women call for the right to choose what they wear. This represents our freedom to make choices in what we think and do.
Nasrin Sotoudeh
Kaufman: Please describe what happened to Mahsa on Sept. 13, around 6:00pm, near the Haghani Metro station.
Sotoudeh: What we know is based on the news and first-person accounts. The Gasht-e-Ershad or “morality police” are always present at Metro stations. They park their vans in front of the entrances and exits so they can inspect people getting on and off the trains.
On that particular day, Mahsa was pulled over. We don’t know why, since she was wearing a long overcoat and a headscarf, but it’s not hard to guess that it was because she was young and pretty. The CCTV footage showed that when she was confronted by the officer, she said, “But I’m covered by a coat and a headscarf. What is wrong with that?” The officer clearly ignored her and arrested her and put in the van.
Kaufman: What do we know about the time between her arrest and when she was transferred to Kasra Hospital?
Khandan: When young women get arrested, they are very often beaten before being transferred to the police station. Evidence is that Mahsa was assaulted and struck in the head when she was inside the van. It is significant that we actually have CCTV footage of her at the station, but the government refuses to release footage from her time in that van.
Sotoudeh: We also heard from other women who were held with her in the van that she was beaten, and that her head was slammed against the side of the vehicle. CCTV footage from inside the station shows her approaching one of the officers, and then she passes out. They take her to the hospital, and three days later, she’s declared brain-dead.
There is no doubt that her death was a state murder, and that is because she died in custody. The officials said, “She died of a heart attack, and we didn’t beat her.” However, we know that those are lies.
Sadly we know that many other women before and after Mahsa have experienced this same kind of thing because of the way they dress.
Reza Khandan
Kaufman: Before we talk about how Mahsa’s death sparked nationwide protests, please take a moment to describe Iran’s mandatory hijab laws—not just the laws themselves, but the motive for that kind of control.
Sotoudeh: If you look at all the authoritarian governments around the Middle East, you notice something. The most effective kind of physical and mental control is control of the body, especially control of women’s bodies.
For example, in Afghanistan look at the Taliban’s ban on girl’s education. In Saudi Arabia, there has been a ban on women driving cars. In Iran, there is the compulsory hijab (editor’s note: a severe dress code for all Iranian women, including covering the head with a scarf). Let’s look at how the Iranian government after the 1979 Islamic revolution used their control over women’s bodies. It was written in the law that if a women didn’t have the proper hijab, they’d be forced to pay a fine, get lashes, or go be sentenced to prison.
During the Daughters of the Enghelab (Revolution) Street movement in 2018 and 2019, women around the country protested these laws by publicly removing their headscarves and waving them on a stick like a flag. The government brutally cracked down and increased the crime from “not having proper hijab” to a heavier charge of “promoting corruption and immorality,” which is the exact crime that I am accused of right now.
(Editor’s note: Nasrin Sotoudeh served over three years in prison for her legal work supporting these protesters. She and Reza are both now home on “temporarily release,” but they each face many more years of imprisonment for their human rights activities.)
Sotoudeh (continued): After Mahsa’s death, we saw many women call for the right to choose what they wear. This represents our freedom to make choices in what we think and do. Even religious women who accept the hijab supported others who oppose these unfair laws. They said publicly and privately “We cannot accept the mandatory hijab laws. We cannot accept the murder of Mahsa. We cannot accept killing women because of they resist discrimination.” This is a significant step forward.
Kaufman: Let me add as a sidebar to this conversation that controlling women’s bodies is a central issue in this country as well. When Kamala Harris, now running for president, was a United States senator and served in the hearing for the Supreme Court nomination of Brett Kavanaugh, she asked Kavanaugh, “Can you name one instance where the government tries to control men’s bodies?” Despite his years of education and experience, he just sputtered and couldn’t answer.
Sotoudeh: It is a universal challenge.
Kaufman: I wish the transcription could show Nasrin’s face right now because she blew her hair and shook her head in disgust and disbelief. We have that expression a lot these days.
Let’s move on. How did Mahsa’s tragic death lead to the Woman, Life, Freedom movement, which mobilized thousands of people around Iran in grassroots demonstrations for democracy and women’s rights?
Khandan: I think it was because Iran was this volcano that was ready to erupt. For example, just two weeks before what happened to Mahsa, the writer Sepideh Rashnou was arrested for opposing the mandatory hijab, and that made people very angry.
Sotoudeh: In my opinion, the Woman, Life, Freedom movement shows that young Iranians—women and men—want to live life on their own terms, without the authorities telling them what to wear, think and do. The best example of that is what happened in 1989 in Czechoslovakia with The Velvet Revolution.
However, the ways the government suppressed the Woman, Life, Freedom Movement was savage. The closest experience in this country was in the 1980s. We have a great deal of documentation about the mass executions and tortures of Iranian political prisoners in that era.
Now, evidence about the repression of the Woman, Life, Freedom movement shows that every single one of the methods used to punish the protesters was deliberate, often with the clear purpose of oppressing and harming women’s bodies.
Kaufman: To further what you’re saying, the United Nations human rights special rapporteur in Iran reported the Iranian government used murder, imprisonment, forced disappearances, torture, rape and sexual violence and persecution to suppress the Woman, Life, Freedom movement.
Khandan: Yes. Sometimes, the government increases executions to scare people, and sometimes, they bring the numbers down to control people. But it’s always there.
Another method they use is beating demonstrators to do lasting bodily harm and disable them. We saw how often they blinded people by shooting them in the eyes with rubber bullets.
None of that is new, but one thing that is different over this period is that a number of people who were detained for a short time (days or weeks), then died shortly after being released. They would come back with visible scars or nothing at all, but they all had in common the fact that they had been given some kind of drugs in prison. We need to know more.
Sotoudeh: Please understand that it is very difficult for us to talk about issues like this, especially when Mahsa and other young people lost their lives. It’s a tragic story and very sad in many ways. But for us there’s also this personal level because Mahsa was my daughter’s age. Armita Geravand, who died last year at the hands of the morality police, was my son’s age. Every parent who hears this story can really feel what it is like to lose your children at any age. And the other thing that makes it really difficult for us is that after enduring all this violence and grief in the country, we have not been able to get justice for them. We are still enduring it and trying to have those responsible be accountable, but so far there has been no resolution. This is why it is very painful.
Kaufman: I do understand.
And for those who read this interview, I should mention that Nasrin got up a minute ago and came back with some Kleenexes. Sorry to ask, but was it because you were crying?
Sotoudeh: Yes. We need justice for these crimes.
Kaufman: Thank you for sharing this. Let me just say that one of the reasons my wife Marcia and I love both of you is because you don’t just show your humanity in a political way. We see you express it as people, as parents, as friends.
Sotoudeh: We are fortunate to have such good friends.
For us, there’s also this personal level because Mahsa was my daughter’s age. Armita Geravand, who died last year at the hands of the morality police, was my son’s age.
Nasrin Sotoudeh
Khandan: To change the mood a little, I’ll tell a story from [our son] Nima’s experience with high school and his friends.
Nima goes to an all-boys art school that is typically very artsy and the students who go there look different from other kids—you know, they have long hair and earrings, and some wear mascara or nail polish. It’s not for show, they’re interesting kids and their style is part of their self expression. The high school is located around City Theatre Station, a well-known neighborhood in Tehran. So, the morality police vans are always patrolling the area. Often, they go up to the kids from the school and tell them, “Put on your headscarf,” and “Clean up your makeup!” They don’t realize that these are boys, they’re not girls. Then someone will say, “Hey, never mind, it’s a guy. He doesn’t need a headscarf.” And they don’t care anymore.
Kaufman: Actually, that is fascinating and kind of profound. Because it shows that the authorities aren’t really concerned about the image a person projects, just the gender inside the clothes. In other words, they’re “offended” not by their appearance, but by the idea of the person themself. Also, for folks outside of the country, it’s a reminder that Iran has a very rich and diverse culture that most people have no idea about, or don’t understand.
Let’s return to the two-year anniversary of Mahsa’s death, which sadly connects to the death of another young woman under similar circumstances: Armita Geravand. Nasrin, you mentioned her a few minutes ago. Almost exactly a year ago, around the first anniversary of Mahsa’s death, Armita was beaten to death by Tehran’s morality police in a Metro station.
You went to her funeral, and like some of the other women who attended you refused to wear a hijab. The funeral service was raided, you were beaten, dragged across the ground, your glasses broken, and you were arrested. Can you describe what happened and how that connects so directly to the events we’re discussing?
Sotoudeh: There were almost 50 people arrested, half men and half women. There were many physical injuries because they used the same violence on us that they used on Mahsa and Armita and countless protesters over the years. I complained about this use of force, but none of that is new.
This is the continuation of what women’s rights activists have been doing in Iran for years. For example, 120 years ago, women fought for girls’ schools. Some teachers would teach in those schools and on their way home, they would be attacked or killed. After Mahsa’s murder, schoolgirls were being poisoned in schools. My point is that it’s all part of an ongoing effort that those women started over a century ago. Internationally, there was the Suffrage movement. The fight for the right to vote. In America, there have been different waves of the feminism movement. So are we in Iran supposed to keep paying this price for progress? If that’s what it takes, then yes. We are going to keep at it until we get what we deserve.
Iranian women who saw this happen … are continuing with the civil disobedience and continue to refuse to wear the hijab. So, the actions in the streets after Mahsa’s death has moved into people’s daily lives.
Nasrin Sotoudeh
Kaufman: What would you say is the meaning and impact of Mahsa Amini’s short life?
Khandan: Mahsa, and others like her, didn’t want to become a hero. She didn’t want to make history. She just wanted to live a free life. It is this government’s cruelty that made Mahsa’s name memorable.
When you look at it, obviously there has not been any political change. We haven’t really changed the government. The real impact—and it has been very powerful—has been the social impact. There is no doubt that Iran is one of the most authoritarian countries in the world today, and yet, if you look at the society right now, it is in no way the same Iran that it was two years ago. There had been a really deep and everlasting change.
Sotoudeh: I agree with Reza that Mahsa wasn’t trying to be a hero, she wasn’t trying to change the country, she was just living her life, which she had the right to do. And because of that, there is a certain innocence about her. That did two things.
First, seeing her innocent life cut short brought people out to the streets. The grief was too much for the society to bear. People couldn’t stand the injustice and the oppression anymore. They couldn’t stay home. They had to come out.
The second thing it did was for Iranian women who saw this happen. They said, “You killed one of us. We can no longer pretend it’s okay to wear what you tell us to wear and just accept it so we can go on with our lives.” Those women are continuing with the civil disobedience and continue to refuse to wear the hijab. So, the actions in the streets after Mahsa’s death has moved into people’s daily lives.
Kaufman: What’s next?
Sotoudeh: Definitely the movement will go on and another event will trigger new demonstrations, because we have not yet gained the rights we deserve. We want the compulsory hijab laws to be abolished, but it hasn’t happened. We want the morality police to be dismantled, but it hasn’t happened. And while we wanted less pressure on women, more women got arrested, and injured, and killed after Mahsa. So that’s why now the movement has moved from the streets to inside the individual woman, every single one who continues with personal acts of civil disobedience.
We can still serve Mahsa’s generation, and those that follow. The women of Iran—and the men who support them—are strong and determined and will never give in or give up. That is why I believe in progress and still have hope.
Kaufman: Progress! Thank you very much.
Sotoudeh and Khandan: Thank you.
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