“If progressive feminists want to build a robust multiracial democracy in the United States, we have to understand how Evangelical power has been built,” says Talia Lavin, author of Wild Faith: How the Christian Right is Taking Over America.
Journalist Talia Lavin‘s second book, Wild Faith: How the Christian Right is Taking Over America, reports that a huge swath of the U.S. body politic—at least 10 million people—subscribe to the Evangelical notion that spiritual warfare is necessary to create God’s kingdom on earth.
A deep distrust of secular authority, she writes, coupled with rigid ideas about gender, sexuality, and power has led many Evangelicals into conservative political activism. Alongside the homeschooling of children, the acceptance of corporal punishment as necessary for successful parenting, and the submission of wives to husbands, patriarchy is writ large in the communities Lavin describes.
Moreover, thanks to in-depth interviews with more than 100 Evangelicals who’ve left the fold, Wild Faith gives readers an important window into an often-underestimated population whose worldview includes belief in a literal Devil, support for strengthening the state of Israel, and opposition to abortion, birth control and sexual agency.
Lavin spoke with Ms.’s Eleanor J. Bader several weeks before the book’s October 15 release.
This interview has been lightly edited for clarity.
Eleanor J. Bader: What prompted you to explore Evangelical Christianity as a social and political movement?
Talia Lavin: My first book, Culture Warlords: My Journey into the Dark Web of White Supremacy, was about racist fringe movements. Since it came out in 2020 I’ve noticed that a lot of neo-Nazi ideas—extreme hostility to immigrants, vile comments about trans people and an obsession with controlling women’s bodies, for example—have been incorporated into mainstream political speech. These ideas are articulated everywhere and things that were once not spoken aloud are now part of everyday discourse.
I wanted to explore this, study how we got here and interrogate how brutal rhetoric and ruthless policies became normalized.
Bader: How did you handle being immersed in such a racist and misogynist world?
Lavin: I finished researching and writing Culture Warlords in nine months during a global pandemic and being isolated had a damaging psychological impact on me. I was writing about hardcore Nazis and, as a Jewish feminist, I took what they said and wrote personally. These were people who explicitly said that they wanted folks like me dead. It was traumatizing.
This book was different. First of all, we’re no longer in a lockdown, and by the time I started Wild Faith, I’d learned a lot about pacing. I took two years to write and research this book and my hard-won wisdom is something I call guarding my heart. With this book, I knew I needed to make space for things that give me joy so I did not get stuck in an airless bell jar or find myself caught in despair.
Bader: Were you successful?
Lavin: Sort of. The most impactful research I did involved reading a large number of marriage and parenting manuals that discussed wifely submission and the paddling of children to ensure obedience. Talking at length to many people who survived violent childhoods gave me insight into their trauma and I view these conversations as a sacred trust. That said, as a journalist, I absorbed some of their pain. I wanted the facts I was reporting to be perfect, of course, but what also helped wasn’t shying away from my own opinions under the name of “faux objectivity.”
Bader: The promotion of women as male “help meets” and obedient wives and mothers has deep historical roots. Why do you think so many women and girls go along with oppressive gender “rules” and abuse their children?
Lavin: Wild Faith is unapologetically feminist, but I don’t subscribe to the idea that women are inherently more compassionate than men. Time and again we’ve seen women work to restrict reproductive rights; women are also authors of some of the marriage manuals that prescribe wifely submission.
Female involvement in right-wing movements and Evangelism are nothing new. There have always been women in Evangelical and right-wing circles—public speakers and leaders—who use their talents to push other women into roles that they, themselves, do not adhere to. But I think hypocrisy is a weak charge to level against people. It’s petty.
‘Wild Faith‘ is unapologetically feminist, but I don’t subscribe to the idea that women are inherently more compassionate than men. Time and again we’ve seen women work to restrict reproductive rights; women are also authors of some of the marriage manuals that prescribe wifely submission.
Talia Lavin, author of Wild Faith
You have to understand that for the religious right-wing, a multitude of sins can be forgiven if what’s done is done in service to God. Those women who write, speak out, or go to law school see themselves on a holy mission. After all, if you are fighting the Devil, if you believe your words and actions are in direct service to a divine plan, then taking a public role as a woman is a small transgression, if it’s a transgression at all.
A big portion of Wild Faith makes the argument that people who say they believe in a political or theological doctrine are doing so from a position of sincerity. Yes, for women this means they’re collaborating with patriarchy, but they believe they are making the world a more sacred place.
Spiritual warfare is the fundamental framework of the Christian right. They are working to save and preserve the soul of America.
Bader: But isn’t this also about power?
Lavin: The desire for power and the sincerity of belief are not mutually exclusive. Many Christian texts specifically argue for taking the reins of temporal power. There is no reason to doubt that people who say they want to turn the U.S. into a Christian nation are genuine in their desire.
The history of religion shows us that it is possible to advocate for terrible things as a zealous believer in a vengeful God. Sincere faith is not a shield against things that are harmful to some members of society. Truly awful things have been done in the name of faith.
Bader: One of the book’s most intense sections focuses on the Satanic Panic, which you describe as “a culture war campaign rooted in demon-tinged hysteria, waged by Christian parents and law enforcement officers who were convinced that the most banal interactions were influenced by Lucifer himself.” Teachers at several preschools were accused of sexually molesting children. While the charges against the McMartin Preschool were eventually dropped due to a lack of evidence, several educators were convicted of specific charges. How did the panic take hold and spread?
Lavin: Let me clarify. Although the panic has waxed and waned, it never ended. Within Evangelical communities, demonology is a vibrant political force and there are people who believe that demons are cavorting in American schools. QAnon has sucked up these ideas. But it’s worth stating that it was not just conservative Evangelical Christians who got caught up in the Satanic Panic. Janet Reno at the Department of Justice, law enforcers across the country and victim’s rights advocates, including some feminists, got on board. As I see it, periodic moral panics don’t ever completely die, but they do hibernate.
The desire for power and the sincerity of belief are not mutually exclusive. Many Christian texts specifically argue for taking the reins of temporal power. There is no reason to doubt that people who say they want to turn the U.S. into a Christian nation are genuine in their desire.
Talia Lavin, author of Wild Faith
Bader: You write that many Evangelicals are uncritical supporters of Israel and see the Palestinian people as an “obstacle to the coming return of Christ.” Can you explain this?
Lavin: The founding of modern-day Israel is thought to be the fulfillment of a Biblical prophecy. Some end times theology requires the entire Jewish population to be gathered back to Israel before Christ can return. These folks are cheering the war in Gaza because they see it as the violence that the Bible predicts will provoke the Apocalypse. Palestinians do not figure into this; they are extraneous.
Bader: What’s behind Evangelical opposition to vaccines?
Lavin: A big element of Evangelical thought involves skepticism about government, sometimes called the “deep state.” There have always been people who see vaccines as dangerous but this group grew after COVID vaccines hit the market. Since 2020, overt opposition to vaccine mandates and violent resistance to state-mandated healthcare of any kind has spread. Within Evangelical communities, there’s a knee-jerk skepticism toward all top-down government authority.
Bader: Liberation theologians and groups like the Poor People’s Campaign have a totally different interpretation of Scripture and ally themselves with the poor and disenfranchised. Do Evangelicals acknowledge these different interpretations of the gospel?
Lavin: It’s important not to fall into the trap of seeing Evangelicals as “bad” Christians. Of course, their theology is different from liberal theology. In fact, left-wing Christianity and right-wing Christianity are fundamentally different theological projects.
But calling Evangelicals “fake Christians,” as some liberal groups do, is both damaging and unproductive.
For me as a religious outsider, it’s clear that Christian is not a synonym for good. The word simply refers to people who believe Jesus is the son of God.
Bader: Let’s talk about corporal punishment, which you describe in horrifying detail. Although we know that some people leave Evangelical communities because of physical or emotional abuse, is it all or nothing or is it possible for folks to retain some ties to family and friends if they leave?
Lavin: Every person I spoke to had a different story. Some left because they’re queer. Others could not conform in other ways or simply decided that they could no longer stay. For most, separation is a long process because it involves leaving family, community and financial security.
Many people I interviewed told me of constant attempts to draw them back in; those who resist typically become estranged from their parents, siblings and other relatives. I found it interesting to see that many Evangelical ministries offer resources for parents who are estranged from their children. This told me that the phenomenon is more common than is publicly acknowledged.
Bader: Have the many church scandals—especially those that involve extramarital or queer sex—had any impact on loosening the rules governing gender or behavioral norms?
Lavin: Around the time that the #MeToo movement was at its height, there were murmurs about sexual abuse in Evangelical circles, using the hashtag #Churchtoo. The backlash against these accusations—and against feminism more generally—was ferocious. Everything that the church teaches centers on inculcating obedience and anyone who rocks the boat is met with vitriol.
Bader: What message or messages do you want readers to take away from Wild Faith?
Lavin: Knowledge is power. If progressive feminists want to build a robust multiracial democracy in the United States, we have to understand how Evangelical power has been built. I also hope people will see that sincere faith can be a motive for brutal political policies and outcomes and combat it accordingly.
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